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Forced Kneeling

I certainly would not trade these lanes away for an Increased difficulty in the sitters tho :mad:

Agree 1000%
Correctly placed offhand and kneelers are much more doable than a course full of 3/8" @ 18yards or 1/2" @ 25 yard targets, to just barely be legal.

As it currently stands, some skill (AGAIN, based on practice) can allow the offhand/kneelers to be knocked down. But start getting into 48-50 Troyer targets as a 💩y alternative to forced position shots.....and well, luck starts to become a factor. And we want the most skilled guy to win, not the luckiest.

I was never pro for harder courses, just using that to point out the absurdity of getting rid of the shots that require the most skill (kneelers and offhand) and therefore already make the best tiebreaking shots.

For all my sarcastic comments about practice being for cheaters, as in any competition, the most skilled shooter in an ft match should usually be the winner. And skill comes from practice.
 
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I don’t agree that FT is not a hunting simulation game. It is. That is its roots.

You can still compete and enjoy it without being a hunter but that doesn’t change what it is. Is that not politically correct? Good!

Look at the target info posted by AAFTA. It still mentions quarry type targets being utilized. Wonder why? Roots are important. History remains prudent!

If you cannot kneel, shoot standing offhand. Cannot understand all the fuss. I’m going to have to practice standing offhand more. Practice is like a performance enhancing substance 😂 Hey bro, you on that PES…….😉 “Let’s test this guy for practice, I sense an unruly amount of confidence when they’re on the offhand lane. Dude even shot kneeling lane standing and cleaned it‼️

🧐
 
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I don’t have a problem with the AAFTA kneeling rules, but I do wonder where they came from. Even the NRA positional rules are not as restrictive.

Although I can't answer how the forced kneeling thing originated, much less any possible reasoning behind it, I do know who came up with details of the position as illustrated in the AAFTA handbook. But rather than divulge who that is, let's just say there is a slight clue in the handbook.
 
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Since we seem to have a stalemate between people who are good at kneeling and want to keep kneeling versus people that love America and freedom :D I've thought of another wrinkle. This one would require a rule change rather than changing the match director mindset.

What if instead of a kneeling lane we had an unsupported lane. Shoot it however you want, as long as your butt is not supported by a seat, bag or the ground. And no sticks. So kneeling, standing, prone, rice paddy squat, Annie Oakley. The rules would be super simple. The only thing that can touch your gun is you. The only thing that can touch your butt is you.

Obviously the easiest way to shoot this would be kneeling (maybe prone if the lane is set up for it), but we could get rid of the restrictive kneeling rules and open it up for innovation.

My problem with kneeling isn't so much the position, it's all of the rules around the position. I'm in favor of fewer rules that are easily enforced.
 
Since we seem to have a stalemate between people who are good at kneeling and want to keep kneeling versus people that love America and freedom :D I've thought of another wrinkle. This one would require a rule change rather than changing the match director mindset.

What if instead of a kneeling lane we had an unsupported lane. Shoot it however you want, as long as your butt is not supported by a seat, bag or the ground. And no sticks. So kneeling, standing, prone, rice paddy squat, Annie Oakley. The rules would be super simple. The only thing that can touch your gun is you. The only thing that can touch your butt is you.

Obviously the easiest way to shoot this would be kneeling (maybe prone if the lane is set up for it), but we could get rid of the restrictive kneeling rules and open it up for innovation.

My problem with kneeling isn't so much the position, it's all of the rules around the position. I'm in favor of fewer rules that are easily enforced.

The only way your suggestion would work Scott is if there was a vote of all FT shooters; simply because, humans being human, those advantaged over others don't give up their advantage(s) willingly.

This seems the right time point out that posts in this tread suggesting or alleging those that can shoot kneeling lanes kneeling are the best or most skilled shooters are simply wrong, THEY ARE NOT the most skilled shooters.

They might be as skilled as me or you, but prevail because I have to shoot the 1.5X difficulty multiplier kneeling lanes from 1.75X difficulty multiplier standing offhand position; so shooters that can kneel have not only a distinct advantage over those of us that can't (possibly a MAJORITY of FT shooters, by the way), but a WELL QUANTIFIED advantage. I repeat, they are NOT the most skilled shooters.

Remove their advantage and give it to me and see what happens next.
 
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@AirNGasman , Ron, it’s 9AM. You’re sleep walking or sleep keyboarding or something. Hit the sack for another few hours bro. Way too early for you 😄

With the performances I’ve seen from you, Ron, as of late; your standing shooting is incredible. Keep shooting kneelers standing cause it’s good for you, Ronaldo. Astonishing win for second place in that shoot-off Saturday 👏🏻
 
The only way your suggestion would work Scott is if there was a vote of all FT shooters; simply because, humans being human, those advantaged over others don't give up their advantage(s) willingly.

This seems the right time point out that posts in this tread suggesting or alleging those that can shoot kneeling lanes kneeling are the best or most skilled shooters are simply wrong, THEY ARE NOT the most skilled shooters.

They might be as skilled as me or you, but prevail because I have to shoot the 1.5X difficulty multiplier kneeling lanes from 1.75X difficulty multiplier standing offhand position; so shooters that can kneel have not only a distinct advantage over those of us that can't (possibly a MAJORITY of FT shooters, by the way), but a WELL QUANTIFIED advantage. I repeat, they are NOT the most skilled shooters.

Remove their advantage and give it to me and see what happens next.
Following the current rules versus trying to change them to suit me.....who's looking for an advantage?

The verbiage you've used throughout this discussion implies that some people are not capable of kneeling. The common phrase of "use it or lose it" when referencing joint mobility as the human body ages, comes to mind.

There are two types here, the small minority of legitimately disabled shooters and the "I'm old and it hurts" type. I know of only one truly disabled individual that I've ever seen attempt a field target match. He's been dealing with his physical deficiencies his entire life. He asked for no exceptions, although the match director allowed such, as most any decent human would. And yes, there were forced position shots in that match. He did them the best he could and not one single person had an issue with that.

So now people will jump in and say they've had a knee surgery to make them disabled. And now we're cooking in my kitchen. (I didn't dig long, but I'm sure there are better post total knee studies out there also showing that range of motion after a knee replacement depends on the individuals desire to have decent range of motion).

Not the most robust study, but applicable here. This is perhaps the most relevant comment from that published study:
"Among all the factors reported in the literature, the amount of pre-operative knee flexion seems to be the most consistent and significant factor in predicting the post-operative knee flexion after total knee replacement [6, 8, 9, 11, 12]. Many surgeons believe that the motivation of the patient is another important factor which affects the final flexion range after total knee arthroplasty.....It is frequently observed that patients who are better motivated in the rehabilitation period and exhibit a higher tolerance to pain usually enjoy a superior flexion range at the final follow-up."

Scott commented earlier that conditioning is important. If the knee (original or replaced) won't bend, see a physical therapist. They'll have some exercises that will get you to a point where the simple act of kneeling is possible.

And yes, there will be a handful of people that literally CANNOT kneel (see legitimately disabled above). Those are the types with debilitating medical conditions like spina bifida or other uncurable skeletal deformities.

The rules should not be changed for the rare truly disabled individual who wants to shoot field target.

If you or anybody else CHOOSES to shoot the kneelers as offhand and scores better that way, I'll be the first to congratulate you/them on your success and your skill level.

If you're truly disabled (think electric scooter/leg cage braces) everyone will know it and the MD will make an exception. If you're not truly disabled but try to get an exception from the MD, everybody will know youre a weasel.

("can't never did anything")
 
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Following the current rules versus trying to change them to suit me.....who's looking for an advantage?

The verbiage you've used throughout this discussion implies that some people are not capable of kneeling. The common phrase of "use it or lose it" when referencing joint mobility as the human body ages, comes to mind.

There are two types here, the small minority of legitimately disabled shooters and the "I'm old and it hurts" type. I know of only one truly disabled individual that I've ever seen attempt a field target match. He's been dealing with his physical deficiencies his entire life. He asked for no exceptions, although the match director allowed such, as most any decent human would. And yes, there were forced position shots in that match. He did them the best he could and not one single person had an issue with that.

So now people will jump in and say they've had a knee surgery to make them disabled. And now we're cooking in my kitchen. (I didn't dig long, but I'm sure there are better post total knee studies out there also showing that range of motion after a knee replacement depends on the individuals desire to have decent range of motion).

Not the most robust study, but applicable here. This is perhaps the most relevant comment from that published study:
"Among all the factors reported in the literature, the amount of pre-operative knee flexion seems to be the most consistent and significant factor in predicting the post-operative knee flexion after total knee replacement [6, 8, 9, 11, 12]. Many surgeons believe that the motivation of the patient is another important factor which affects the final flexion range after total knee arthroplasty.....It is frequently observed that patients who are better motivated in the rehabilitation period and exhibit a higher tolerance to pain usually enjoy a superior flexion range at the final follow-up."

Scott commented earlier that conditioning is important. If the knee (original or replaced) won't bend, see a physical therapist. They'll have some exercises that will get you to a point where the simple act of kneeling is possible.

And yes, there will be a handful of people that literally CANNOT kneel (see legitimately disabled above). Those are the types with debilitating medical conditions like spina bifida or other uncurable skeletal deformities.

The rules should not be changed for the rare truly disabled individual who wants to shoot field target.

If you or anybody else CHOOSES to shoot the kneelers as offhand and scores better that way, I'll be the first to congratulate you/them on your success and your skill level.

If you're truly disabled (think electric scooter/leg cage braces) everyone will know it and the MD will make an exception. If you're not truly disabled but try to get an exception from the MD, everybody will know youre a weasel.

("can't never did anything")

Thank you for congratulating me on cleaning a kneeling lane offhand FL, but that might have been an anomaly. More likely, a combination of skill and luck. Regardless, it is quite memorable.

Being honest in the extreme, I am one of those you excoriate that CAN kneel, but choose not to in order to avoid injury. That last step of bearing weight on my contorted knee, ankle and foot is simply SO painful that not only can I not concentrate on the shot, but I risk injury. So I choose the lesser of two evils by sacrificing points by shooting kneeling lanes offhand.

Which brings up to a point (or two) I've purposely not mentioned so far, in order to to see if anyone else might make the leap of logic. Apparently few to none did.

1) We (now) live in a very litigious society. I have little doubt there are lawyers out there willing to pursue litigation for clients not smart enough to not injure themselves attempting to avoid competitive disadvantages. I know from previous experience that in the past the BoG has foregone doing the right thing in order to avoid possible litigation. That possible litigation was much less likely than this possible litigation. As litigation goes, "it ain't paranoia when it's reality".

2) The following point may, or may not, be the more realistic point everyone is missing. At what point does keeping a forced position that even many who want to keep it to maintain their advantage have confessed in this thread they don't LIKE do enough damage to FT for that minority to recognize that fact? When a majority can't shoot kneeling? We might already be there. When 2/3 majority can't? How about 3/4?

Being old as dirt I've come to appreciate some adages that are obviously profound truisms. Let's go there now, with a few of my own (original) adages, and/or spins on others.

Experience is NOT the best teacher; BAD experience is a MUCH better teacher. Litigation qualifies as a VERY good bad teacher.

"Age equals wisdom." With wisdom comes insight. With insight comes foresight (the capacity for forethought). That's all because with age comes accrual of experiences. And I speak from experience in saying not only does age seemingly accrue at exponentially accelerating rates as One accrues age, but seemingly also do experiences accrue exponentially as one accrues age. And although intelligence and wisdom are not synonymous, it is inarguable that any level of intelligence gains wisdom from experience (and age).

A wise person does not have to rely on his own experiences to learn. He can learn from others' experiences proactively, therefore avoiding repeating the bad experiences of others. I try to do that, though not always successfully.🤤

3) Contrary to what some might want to believe, although my suggestions in this thread are indeed self-serving, not nearly as much as some want to believe. Having for decades been a loud and tireless promoter and defender of Field Target AND the BoG, my primary motivation here is what's best for Field Target and the BoG. I just happen to believe sacrificing participation in order to cling to a forced position that only a small minority of FT shooters like, and no one seems to know how or why that forced position came to be in the first place, MIGHT NOT be the lesser of two evils (aka- the wisest choice). I understand and accept that some question my motivations, and simply consider the source(s). Regardless, I'm not wrong.

Though I'm not an official spokesman, pretty sure I speak not only for myself here, but a growing percentage of FT shooters. I just happen to have thick enough skin to take incoming fire for those reluctant to put themselves in the line of fire.

Am I exaggerating the percentage(s)? If willing, you can easily find out for yourself. At conclusion of any shooters meeting simply ask for a show of hands of every shooter that can't shoot keeling lanes kneeling. Then take a count and compare that count to the number of entrants. Although you might be surprised, I don't expect it to change any minds. Simply enlighten.
 
Another classic case of CANCEL CULTURE mentality.
I / We can't do that or Don't Want too do that so we attempt to change the rules so we can Place / Do better and have it be more fun "For Us"

Color me ignorant or stupid .... Come end of the day this as many sports will, Gain & also Lose participants for many reasons ... Slacking on long established rules is not IMO a good recipe change.

Thinking I'm officially done with this thread ....
 
Thank you for congratulating me on cleaning a kneeling lane offhand FL, but that might have been an anomaly. More likely, a combination of skill and luck. Regardless, it is quite memorable.

Being honest in the extreme, I am one of those you excoriate that CAN kneel, but choose not to in order to avoid injury. That last step of bearing weight on my contorted knee, ankle and foot is simply SO painful that not only can I not concentrate on the shot, but I risk injury. So I choose the lesser of two evils by sacrificing points by shooting kneeling lanes offhand.

Which brings up to a point (or two) I've purposely not mentioned so far, in order to to see if anyone else might make the leap of logic. Apparently few to none did.

1) We (now) live in a very litigious society. I have little doubt there are lawyers out there willing to pursue litigation for clients not smart enough to not injure themselves attempting to avoid competitive disadvantages.
Should the DPS/DMV consider pulling you old fart’s Driving Licenses 🪪 to avoid this litigious society? Once at 65 or 70 plus years of age, reaction time plummets. Some folks workout and continue to be well-read and keep themselves in good working order (physically and cognitively) but the majority do not! Pull those DLs to avoid harming yourselves and others while behind the wheel……

I know, I know, bad analogy. I’ve probably pissed someone off too. Get over it 🤯

They may pull my license 🪪 for barely being able to see over the dash 🤓 I can utilize a booster seat 💺 though 🤪
 
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I think AAFTA should reconsider their views on the Unlimited/Freestyle class. Reason being, I have to wear these hard plastic things in my eyes everyday to see past my nose.

PXL_20230904_182738507.jpg



And participating in this entirely voluntary activity of field target requires ranging by focus. And frankly it causes too much eye strain and fatigue and pain and suffering to range by focus using these scleral lenses. I might even sue.

But if they'd just consider changing the rules so that I could use me a laser rangefinder in an AAFTA recognized class, well then I wouldn't need to sue for the possible injury that ranging by focus might cause.

Let's just ignore the fact that everything else I'll do at a match also requires me to use said eyeball. Just like a semi-functional knee (or two) is required to walk from lane to lane during a match.

Semi-functional knees = semi-functional eyes? I dunno, but everybody has a physical challenge to overcome, in all that we do.
 
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The kneeling rules for AAFTA are almost the same as the WFTF for Europe, so I assume they originally came from there.

The FT kneeling rule is also very much like the NRA kneeling rules except that NRA gives an allowance for shooting with no support aids (no kneeling roll):

From WFTF:
e. If a kneeling roll is not present underneath the ankle joint, the ankle joint must not be in contact with the ground or appear to be in contact with the ground.

From NRA:
If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be positioned at any angle, to include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the ground.

For Hunter Division, the NRA allowance seems more appropriate as you would not normally be carrying a kneeling roll or a bumbag.
 
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The FT kneeling rule is also very much like the NRA kneeling rules except that NRA gives an allowance for shooting with no support aids (no kneeling roll):

From WFTF:
e. If a kneeling roll is not present underneath the ankle joint, the ankle joint must not be in contact with the ground or appear to be in contact with the ground.

From NRA:
If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be positioned at any angle, to include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the ground.

For Hunter Division, the NRA allowance seems more appropriate as you would not normally be carrying a kneeling roll or a bumbag.
Nah, we’ll just keep it like Europe.
 
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Then we should do like WFTF and require that match directors provide kneeling rolls at all kneeling lanes at all sanctioned AAFTA matches.

If not, then the NRA rule makes more sense .
That is actually something that Aafta did a few years ago. Give away kneeling rolls, require the MD to use them for GP’s and encourage them to use them in regular matches. I use my AAFTA kneeling rolls at each match.
 
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That is actually something that Aafta did a few years ago. Give away kneeling rolls, require the MD to use them for GP’s and encourage them to use them in regular matches. I use my AAFTA kneeling rolls at each match.
Kneeling rolls were only given to those clubs that hosted Grand Prix matches.
 
I don’t agree that FT is not a hunting simulation game. It is. That is its roots.

You can still compete and enjoy it without being a hunter but that doesn’t change what it is. Is that not politically correct? Good!

Look at the target info posted by AAFTA. It still mentions quarry type targets being utilized. Wonder why? Roots are important. History remains prudent!
Agree that it has its “roots” in hunting. And we have cute little targets like wabbies that sit there for 5 minutes while we get ready to shoot him from our buckets. However, anyone that actually thinks Hunter FT simulates real small game hunting has never been hunting. 😂

If you want an actual shooting sport that really simulates skills required for hunting, try NRL-22. I like FT, and EFT. But as a younger shooter new to FT recently commented somewhere here on AGN - “it’s like PRS/NRL-22, except for old guys”.